Dr. Ellie Phillips is one of our heroes.
For almost 30 years, she has educated the public to what she understands is the real truth around how to live free from tooth decay.
The author of ‘Kiss Your Dentist Goodbye’ and creator of Zellies xylitol products, some of her perspectives fly in direct opposition to what mainstream dentistry teaches as ‘the path’ to optimal oral health.
So what has caused her to take this path less traveled?
Her knowledge that what she advocates just plain works to stop tooth decay.
In this fun, engaging, sometimes intimate interview, Dr. Phillips shares with us the path she has come to understand to walk to live free from tooth decay (and gum disease).
Show Notes:
7:45 how modern treatment of gum disease could actually increase gum disease
13:00 the various tests available to test for thug bugs implicated with gum disease
17:35 deep dive into the saying ‘fillings grow up to be crowns’
27:00 what to do to help your young child have the right balance of bacteria in their mouth
29:00 what to say to your pediatric dentist when they want to clean your child’s teeth
34:00 the problem and limitation with fluoride
41:00 why breastfeeding is critically important to establish a healthy oral microbiome
49:00 exactly how to use xylitol to stop decay
55:15 Why Dr. Ellie doesn’t believe in dental cleanings
1:02:30 Why sealants aren’t in your child’s best interest
1:03:45 What to do if you have a C-section child to help establish a healthy oral microbiome
1:04:45 How the grooves in our molars are critically important
Expert Interview:
Helpful, Related Resources:
Is xylitol safe to brush with? [article]
How to balance your oral flora [article]
Can some plaques actually help our teeth stay healthy? [article]
Dr Ellie’s excellent book on Amazon
Dr Ellie’s products on Amazon
Dr Ellie’s website
Following the link you provided to Dr. Ellie’s website, Zellie’s also offers Listerine , Crest with fluoride and act. Does OraWellness recommend any of the ingredients in these products? https://zellies.com/collections/oral-health/products/travel-kit
Aloha Deb,
Thank you for your comment!
Please be on the lookout for an email from us with more information that we hope will help!
Aloha! 🙂
Hi Will! Thank you for this interview! I watched a YouTube video of hers https://youtu.be/wd5JKCXAtys & she talked about not using clove oil (17:15) as it kills the nerve. I have been using the HealThy mouth blend now for 10 months with great success, I am no longer sensitive to cold/hot, my teeth feel so clean. But I wonder if the clove oil in it might be affecting my teeth’s nerves long term? Could you please give input on this?
Aloha Marie,
Great question! We’re grateful that you want to research and do your own due diligence.
Just like with our friends and family members, we may respect an expert that we interview and agree with them on some topics, but that does not necessarily mean that we agree with all of their viewpoints.
Essential oils have been a hot (and controversial) topic in the world of oral health. Here’s a blog entry that explains our viewpoint: Are essential oils safe to use in the mouth?
There are a few points to unpack here regarding essential oils and specifically, our HealThy Mouth Blend:
1. When using essential oils in or on the body, the oil concentration levels are key. It’s important that we always do our homework and research how to safely dilute each essential oil by mixing it with an appropriate amount of carrier oil, and rest assured, we here at OraWellness have done just that. Our specific dilution ratio is proprietary information because it pertains to the details of our formula. Please know that we have done our research and used appropriate levels of each essential oil. We blended them with a carrier oil base to ensure that each essential oil is diluted to level that is safe to use in the mouth yet still effective.
2. The way in which we use essential oils is important. You may have read some of our blog entries that point out that the mouth is the entry point to the rest of the body. Some of what we put in the mouth does enter our body through our oral tissues. However, in general, we are just using HealThy Mouth Blend (which, as we mentioned, is already diluted down to safe levels) to brush our teeth with instead of toothpaste, and then we spit and rinse like we normally would after brushing. So, small amounts of blend might wind up in the rest of the body, but we’re not overtly swallowing mouthfuls of the HealThy Mouth Blend. In fact, we never suggest doing that because the essential oils may cause an upset tummy (but even if we did swallow a mouthful of it, again, it’s already diluted, so it’s definitely not as concentrated as swallowing a mouthful of straight-up essential oils).
3. You can always dilute our HealThy Mouth Blend even more. To make it last longer or to reduce the spicy flavor of our blend, some of our customers mix it 50/50 with organic coconut oil. Coconut oil also has plenty of antimicrobial and anti-fungal properties to also support oral health, and the blend does seem to still be effective at this further dilution level.
4. Although it’s not visible in our online store, another option is that currently, we can accommodate requests for custom orders of our HealThy Mouth Blend (something we started doing for folks who have allergies or intolerances to one of the ingredients in the blend). So if you’d like to continue using the blend but you’re still on the fence about the small amount of clove oil that it contains, we could help you order a clove-free version of the HealThy Mouth Blend. 🙂
I hope that helps!
Aloha! 🙂
Hi Will, I don’t know how old this interview is but I’ve known about your company for awhile and just read about Dr. Ellie this week. Do you know why her protocol includes 2 fluoride products? I wish she had explained her thoughts behind it. I really want to avoid fluoride (breastfeeding, history of thyroid issues) and wondered if hydroxyapatite could substitute effectively in her protocol
Aloha Kassia,
We agree with the premise of Dr. Ellie’s program, but not with its application. Dr. Ellie has done good work but she is not holistically-minded in her approach. We agree with her stance on the important role that xylitol can play in supporting oral health, and we respect the huge amount of research Dr. Ellie has done on xylitol. However, we do not agree with or endorse her approach of using fluoride-based products. There is still useful information in Dr. Ellie’s protocol, and even if we don’t agree with all of the products she recommends, we can swap them out for products we like that achieve the same goals.
It’s our understanding that fluorapatite (fluoride) makes teeth harder than hydroxyapatite (MCHA)—which is why dentists lean toward using it—but there is some correlation between fluoride use and teeth becoming more brittle and prone to cracks.
Here’s a direct quote from OraWellness co-founder Will about this:
I hope that helps! Aloha 🙂
I have been using Dr Ellie’s system for 5+ years with excellent results!
No more cleanings needed! 😀
BUT…. I am now terrified of Fluoride after listening to Dr Kennedy’s interview! I didn’t know it was horrifically toxic.
I will now give the Orawellness system a go! 🙂
I will keep buying Dr. Ellie’s Xylitol gum and crystals.
And may keep using closys and lysterine a couple of times per week…not sure yet.
I am scared to stop using those two since they kill Strep Mutans.
But, definitely no more ACT with fluoride!
Can’t wait to try Orawellness…..way more natural!
When would Dr. Ellie recommend a tooth cleaning (child or adult)? (What situations would be in place to warrant a cleaning? She suggests saying to dentist, “Please don’t clean my child’s teeth if they don’t need it.” What warrants “needing it”?)
but dosent flouride cause brittle teeth and cavities as some people say ?
Aloha Jo,
Thank you for your comment.
Our friend and mentor, Dr. David Kennedy, shared with us his concern that regular use of fluoride may cause the outer enamel to be more brittle, and therefore more vulnerable to tooth fractures.
You may be interested in our article, “Is Fluoride Safe to Use?“.
This amazing, yet I will not use harsh chemicals in ACT rinse, you have to call an poison center if you happen to swallow some! But for the alkalizing food, after I eat an apple which is acidic (pH about 5), my saliva has an alkaline pH of 8! But after an hour, it goes back to 6.0. What happens in the mouth to make the saliva alkaline from an acidic food?
I would like to point out a few things after reviewing the comments.
Most of these specific questions can be explained by reading thru years of her blog also the questions and answers section of her website. If you find that your still having plaque issues after following the program. I would ask if you are also following the xylitol use that goes with it, as specified, and maybe increasing it. And following her other recommendation for when and what to drink. I do remember reading about using some of the rinses an extra time per day for awhile if you still have issues.
If you find the Listerine to harsh she does say you can dilute it 50/50 with water for awhile till you get used to it. Also have you tried the different flavors of Listerine and act. I use bubblegum act. As to the Fluoride, I hear people’s concerns. The point I would make is people drink it in water all the time. Brushing with fluoride toothpaste and then rinsing with Listerine followed by act and spitting it out. Gives you many times lower dose into your system than drinking a half a liter of water with fluoride in it. As to flossing, she recommends massaging your gums with your toothbrush everytime you brush your teeth. Yes, there is still controversy with flossing. But if you follow what the dentists tell you. You will brush, floss and still have gum disease and a new cavity to fill every few years. I like the study that showed that using assorted mouthwashes in place of brushing in a retirement home. Reduced plaque some and prevented cavities better than brushing. Or how about the study that followed school children that got there teeth flossed by professionals everyday. And showed no increase in dental health. Do I want to follow a dentist that thinks it’s normal to have a new cavity every couple of years. Or one that has not had a cavity in decades. With many of her family and patients saying the same thing. I found her program just over a year ago. I followed everything my dentist recommended. Flossing, perscription toothpaste, careful brushing. I still had severely sensative teeth. Gingavitis, receding gums among other things. My mouth is much better now, all my pockets are gone, my teeth are clean, all tooth sensitivity left a few weeks after starting her program.
As always thank you for all the passionate work you do in providing valuable info. The one product you did not touch on as far as ingredients go is the Closys rinse. Is this safe and beneficial to use? It contains stabilized chlorine dioxide, trisodium phosphate, and citric acid.
Thank you
Karen
I’m wondering about that, too!
I appreciate reading all the answered questions here as they cover what I was thinking after the video.
I was listening to the program and while I agree with a lot that was said I was disappointed with what Dr. Ellie recommends for her program on her website. She recommends using sodium fluoride in the daily routine of cleaning our teeth and fluoride is a known neurotoxin. “Chinese industrial fluoride suppliers openly list sodium fluoride as ‘insecticide.’ ” I also worked at a fertilizer plant many years ago and the fluoride was a toxic byproduct of the phos. ore we were processing. I’m highly disappointed.
Aloha Alana,
Thanks for reaching out to us here.
We agree with you that we don’t agree with the specifics of Dr Ellie’s program. The reason we wanted to interview her is because of her work to help the public. Off camera, we discussed with Dr Ellie about the toxic factors of fluoride. She is very aware of this and wishes that she had other options. Perhaps as we continue our work here with safe product options, she will see the results and be able to offer her clientele a change to a safer option.
For clarity, you are completely right about the toxic nature of fluoride. We interviewed a world expert on this subject, Dr David Kennedy, where he schooled us for over 2 hours on the details and problems associated with fluoride use.
Don’t let her choice to use fluoride throw you from being able to hear the preventive nature of her message. Despite her choice to use fluoride, she has a helper’s heart and her commitment to educating the public for decades is commendable.
Dr. Ellie states in her book that she does not advocate any use of fluoride in water systems; she uses a special filter to remove fluoride in her own drinking water. She recommends only a very dilute amount of fluoride in a rinse as well as a coating while brushing. Thanks to this website, after using OraWellness products for years, combining with oil pulling and really seeing wonderful results, I was introduced to Dr. Ellie and just finished reading Kiss Your Dentist Goodbye, because I was intrigued by the efficacy of xylitol and curious about how to best protect the mouth of my son who has never used any fluoride product. (In Portland OR, there is no fluoride in our drinking water.)
After reading her book I immediately ordered Closys, 5lbs of birch xylitol, and ACT, which has .05% fluoride. ACT tastes absolutely horrible, and contains artificial colorings and preservatives which I have avoided in food, as well as sorbitol, which even Dr. Ellie does not recommend for its tooth-damaging nature!
I feel conflicted and confused. I wish to protect my family’s mouth in the best way possible.
And, as another kudos to Orawellness, two acupuncturists recently observed that my tongue is so clean and clear (thanks to Orawellness Healthy Mouth system plus oil pulling!) 🙂
Aloha Lara,
Thank you for stopping by to ask these excellent questions.
Your comment here confirms my fear that I had about posting our interview with Dr Ellie.
You see, we agree with Dr Ellie in principle but disagree with her on strategy. Incidentally, off camera Dr Ellie shared with us that she is aware of the problems associated with fluoride and wishes that she could suggest other options in her strategy. But she built her strategy using fluoride and at this point isn’t willing to deviate from it. We think in the years to come that we’ll find that products that don’t contain ‘questionable at best’ ingredients provide an even better solution than what Dr Ellie has provided with her work.
She is a hero of ours because she has been arguing this point essentially alone for many years. She was so excited to connect with us and have another partner to stand with and share solutions other than drill and fill dentistry.
For clarity, we think that we can apply the concepts she teaches and use products that approach oral health from a ‘whole body’ perspective. We don’t suggest or advocate the use of ACT or Closys, but the xylitol is an excellent addition!
I hope this helps Lara.
Dr. Ellie said she cleans her toothbrush. I assume she is not referring to simply rinsing it, therefore how would one clean it?
Aloha CJ, Thanks for stopping by!
You have several options to clean your toothbrush. We suggest using the natural rays from sunlight to clean your toothbrush. You can sterilize your toothbrush by putting it on a sunny window sill, as the heat from the sun rays will kill the bad bacteria. Another option would be to simply put it on a paper towel on the dashboard of your car when parked out in a sunny spot. Other options would be soaking the bristle head in peroxide overnight (full 3% is recommended).
Also, here is a link to our blog article that discusses how to keep your toothbrush clean.
Hope that helps!
Is it ok to soak it in lysterine?(I’ve been doing this for years)
I tried her program for almost 2 years, and I still had plaque buildup. I decided that the listerine component was too harsh, and when I stopped using that, the plaque deceased. But I still had plaque. I recently started using your oil mixed in Closys and brushing by your method, and suddenly I have nearly no plaque and my teeth are the smoothest they’ve ever felt. I’m no longer using any fluoride either, and my gums look so much better. I think there are just too many irritants in the products in her program, and while I know for some people it’s working great, it did not for me. Also, I’ve found that with your oil, my tongue no longer has a coat of anything on it in the morning. I don’t love the brush because I have a small mouth, and the brush is gigantic for me, so maybe I’ll just buy the kids brushes for me and solve that problem. Also, her advice against flossing is contradictory to your advice, so what to do???
Thanks for sharing your experience with Dr Ellie’s program Stacy!
I’m glad to hear that you found your ‘perfect combination’ using our products. You are totally on the mark with the junior brush. Many people with small mouths (children or petite women) find that they prefer the junior brushes!!
Re flossing, when it comes to differing opinions, we have to go with what feels right. Both Dr Ellie and we have solid reasons behind our stances. We agree with her that if someone flosses incorrectly, they can cause more harm than good. That’s why we coined the term ‘conscious flossing’ 🙂
We see that flossing provides tremendous relief system wide for inflammation. Thus, it’s a big, big help for those with gum disease to lower their risk of more systemic inflammation.
So, back to who is in charge (you). What does your intuition tell you? Some people drop flossing quickly because it doesn’t feel right. Others can’t imagine stopping their floss habits.
I hope that helps!
Thank you for your very complete reply! I do believe that flossing is important for massaging gums and really knowing your mouth, so I will stick with it. When I didn’t floss on Dr Ellie’s program, I felt I had worse breath and more irritated gums. The rinses were probably too aggravating for me. I do like Closys a lot, and I’m glad I learned about that from her. And we use xylitol, so I’ve taken the parts that worked and now adding your oil and toothbrushes, I think I’m on a really strong path. I’ve never had such fresh breath and happy gums! I really appreciate her comments on root canals and I think she is a refreshing voice in the dental world. Much respect for her, but no program could possibly work for everyone. Thank you for your research and contributions to dental care!
Will,
Thank you for another brilliant interview! Can you give me the numbered place on the video where I can listen to her speak about oil pulling? Thank you.
THANK YOU! I appreciate everything you do to educate and spread the importance of oral health!!! My family all uses bass toothbrushes, the bass technique for brushing and HealThy Mouth! Please provide more information on zylitol now. 🙂
Aloha LaVonne,
Thank you for reaching out to us and sharing your story here.
You’re welcome! We are honored to provide products and information to help folks along their path to greater oral health.
You might be interested to read Is xylitol safe to brush with?
Thank you and Aloha!
Thank you for this wonderful interview!
My 4 year old is scheduled for dental surgery due to her many cavities, actually tomorrow. This is making me rethink and cancel her appointment tomorrow.
Do you think it is possible to allow let to heal through nutrition and through this program?